Ep. 33- Disclosure and Polygraphs with Dan Drake, LMFT, LPCC, CSAT-S, CCPS-S
/Becky and Tiffany sit down with Dan Drake, a licensed clinician, Certified Sex Addiction Therapist- Supervisor, and Certified Clinical Partner Specialist- Supervisor. He has co-authored several books, including “Full Disclosure: How to Share the Truth after Sexual Betrayal”. Dan is the Founder and Clinical Director of Banyan Therapy Group in Studio City, California. In his passion to help sex addicts, their partners, and families restore relational, mental, emotional, physical, and spiritual wholeness to their lives, Dan strives to provide a safe environment where his clients can grow and heal.
To begin the podcast, Tiffany asks Dan what disclosure is. He shares a simple truth:
Disclosure is an unveiling of truth and honesty.
He says that partners often feel like they are free-falling and they don’t know what the truth is and what the lies are. He says that full therapeautiful disclosure is a facilitated session where there is professional support to help the partner understand what the extent of the sexual betrayal is. Dan shares that he is all for honesty and integrity but that there is a way to do it to share information. He shares that there is a difference between confession (ambush) and disclosure (unveiling). Often it is a discovery by the partner that leads to disclosure or the addict goes to a men’s retreat and finds some relief getting information off their chest. Dan says that addicts often feel good and don’t feel the shame anymore. Then they come home and confess to their partners, in almost an ambush of their partners. Many times, partners are completely blindsided by these confessions. Oftentimes confessions from addicts do not share enough or they share too much. Dan says that is why full therapeutic disclosure is done with professionals who understand the process, as opposed to confessions trickling out over days, months or years.
Tiffany shares that in her marriage, they never had a full therapeutic disclosure. There were some partial disclosures, but she never had the opportunity and wonders how much healing could have taken place if their had been. Becky says that one of the big tenants of her healing is honesty, honesty to others and from others. She feels it is an essential part of recovery. Disclosure can be an important starting place for honesty.
Dan shares the pros and cons of doing a disclosure. He likes to think of it medically- if you are going to a doctor, you want to know the extent of a problem. You want to get a full diagnostic of what is going on before you do any treatment. You will often do assessments and testing. In the same way, disclosure can give you what the bottom of all of this is. Dan says it is similar to building a house, but if you build it on sand, it won’t last very long. For a relationship, if you build it on a good foundation, it will last.
The disclosure essentially gives you a firm foundation.
It makes your foundation that you can rebuild from, solid and strong.
Becky shares that she likes the word rebuild- because the relationship has to be completely rebuilt. It has to be torn down and completely rebuilt almost from scratch, because of the lying and hiding. Dan shares that he kind of shied away from that concept at the beginning of his practice. The old relationship you had just doesn’t exist anymore. You can’t go back. If you had a house destroyed by a fire or earthquake or natural disaster, you are not going back to it. Hopefully you can rebuild it and hopefully it will be more beautiful, but you are not going back to the old house. Disclosure does help rebuild it in a better way. Becky says disclosure gives you the chance to rebuild your relationship in a better way, IF you choose to. It takes work. And this is not easy. Recovery is hard work and disclosure must be really scary because there are no guarantees.
Dan shares that addicts grow up learning they have to split off a part of themselves and they have a negative core of shame. They learn I am bad, I am defective. And if people really knew me, there is no way they would stay with me. That is the core of how they hide and lie and go into secrecy. He says he is not justifying behavior but it can be an explanation of why it is so foreign to addicts when they are told that the way to heal the relationship is through honesty. It is scary, but that is the only way that we heal.
Honesty is the only way that we heal.
Dan shares that if you have an infection, you don’t just put a bandaid on it and pretend it’s going to get healed. You have to clean it out. In the same way, if the addict is not willing to be fully honest, the relationships are going to stagnate or fester and keep the partner in confusion and fear and threat and trauma.
Listener question: What if he has told me everytime he acted out, do we still need a full disclosure?
Dan says that this is about power. Keeping secrets withholds power from their partners and disempowers them. Partners do not have choices because of the lying and hiding. He shares that for trauma-supportive care, he works to help the partner have as much choice as possible. Dan says that it is important to empower partners as much as possible with how the disclosure is going to go, including IF a full disclosure happens or not. Dan is a believer in the process and thinks disclosure is helpful but not everyone chooses to go through it. If the partner feels like she has enough information, it’s just fine not to do a disclosure.
“I will say, though, addicts tend to trickle out information, only share it when forced, and often only share information they are caught about.
And so even for someone who thinks they know everything, they may not. And even if there is no new information given, almost always partners learn something new, put some different pieces together.
Tiffany shares that partial truths were a part of her journey and looking back, she thinks a full disclosure could have been very healing for her.
Dan shares that partners don’t need to do disclosure but “I wouldn't take the addict's word for you to have the full truth”.
Dan says that one of the biggest benefits of disclosure is the healing for the partner. It often validates the intuition of partners, as many addicts are really good at lying and deceiving. Because of this, so partners shouldn’t have known what was going on with the addict . How could they? In the past, partners may have something come up in their intuition that may have been explained away or been gaslit by the addict. He says-
One of the biggest parts of trauma resolution is learning to trust intuition again.
Becky shares that as partners, we often don’t trust ourselves and question ourselves, whether because of upbringing or through our marriages. When partners get information and truth, then their lives start making more sense.
Learning to trust yourself again is so important but it also can feel so hard.
Dan says that when a partner says there is something wrong, that they can feel it in their gut, I, as a therapist, believe that. Maybe the addict is not acting out but there is something wrong. To him, that is the most empowering thing about this process. For the partner to relearn to trust their intuition.
Tiffany then asked if full disclosures can help partner’s fully integrate the experience because her staggered disclosure made it feel so fragmented.
Yes, Dan says that it can feel like putting a puzzle together without having the picture. You may actually have all the pieces on the table but how will you know unless you dump them all out and sort them. Then the picture can come together. He shares that disclosure also allows the betraying partner (addict) to actually say exactly what they did. As a therapist, Dan says he is working with the addict to take out any minimizations and justifications while preparing the disclosure. It gives addicts that chance to take responsibility and accountability, without any blaming.
Becky asked Dan if he felt like disclosure can make a difference for addicts as they are working on their recovery? Taking full responsibility? He says- Yes. For sure. 100%. Addicts tend to have 2 feelings after disclosure- relief and terror. They often feel unburdened after disclosure. This can increase the burden on the partner, so it is important to be especially partner-sensitive and prepare.
Dan shares that it can be very hard for addicts to agree to do a disclosure, but if they knew how helpful it can be in their recovery, he hopes it would be easier for them. Maybe the feeling of terror is part of it. Many experience the worry that if someone knows the deepest, darkest things about them, they worry “What if they don’t choose me?”. Dan says that is not usually what happens because disclosure is a process of being vulnerable. When someone does disclosure in good faith, it doesn’t usually happen like that.
Dan says that addicts may need to hear this, “If you don’t disclose, there is a HUGE risk that you may keep your partner in perpetual confusion or fear or threat or she may have the worst case scenario in her head”.
The wait time, Dan shares, between discovery and disclosure is so hard for partners. It is like being told you had cancer but you had to wait a month or 2 to hear what kind and what stage it is. That’s cruel. And it’s like that waiting for disclosure. There is a window of time that Dan feels is a better way to go. He found that you can never do disclosure soon enough for the partners but almost can’t wait long enough for the addict (to have the level of maturity, understanding, empathy, getting out of the foggy-ness of addiction, sobriety, clarity around dates, etc…). Every couple is different so disclosure can look different for every couple. But once a partner is asking about it, Dan shares that he tends to work to move forward quickly on it.
Dan tends to do disclosure sooner- within the first 6 months.
Dan shares that disclosure has been very addict focused historically. There have been times when a partner was given a disclosure out-of-the-blue, so the partner is not prepared or given any support during and after. It is very blind-siding for the partner. But, Dan says, we have shifted a lot and give the partners a lot more choice in the situation like the location, the time, the setting, and more. This is part of the empowerment that helps partners in their healing process.
Dan then shares some basics of the disclosure process including the time frame, keeping the addict “on-script” when reading his disclosure document, supporting the partner in her clarifying questions, and setting of boundaries that may be needed before, during, and after disclosure.
Dan answers how a betrayed partner can prepare for disclosure- Prepare mind, body, soul and spirit. It is important to be intentional about the time leading up to the disclosure and the time right after disclosure. Finding grounding and centering before, during, and after is very important in the process. The partner preparing the questions is also very important. Becky shares that disclosure can be a place of power, safety, peace, and strength. Even if you are hearing hard things. Dan shares that he is always amazed by the strength that partners come in with. Their ability to listen and respond to this truth.
It is unbelievable how strong these women are. I am humbled.
The conversation then turned to a discussion about polygraphs. Dan shared some pros and cons of including a polygraph in the disclosure process. Again, he supports the partner having a choice. He shares the biggest Pro- A polygraph before disclosure is an external validation that what is presented in the disclosure document is true and complete to the best of the addict’s knowledge. If a polygraph is not used, the therapist and partner have to be human polygraphs and, unfortunately, addicts tend to be really good at lying and deceiving. Polygraphs are one more instrument to help validate the honesty he is giving.
Dan shares that addicts are scared of disclosure but they are really, really scared of polygraphs. He says that it seems like there is more inspired truth that comes out leading up to a polygraph. And there is a deeper dive into the disclosure by addicts about their behavior when they know a polygraph is coming. It helps the addict leave no stone unturned.
Dan shares that there is a difference between fidelity polygraphs vs forensic polygraphs. Forensic polygraphs are trying to catch someone in a lie. In fidelity polygraphs, we want to give addicts every chance to tell the truth leading up to the polygraph and many include a pre-interview before to clarify anything. Having the chance to talk it over and make sure they have shared all that there is to share. Dan shares that everyone wants the addict to pass the polygraph because if they don’t pass, then the whole disclosure work is in question. And because of this, the wording of the questions is important.
Fidelity polygraphs are giving more opportunities to tell the truth.
Dan say another big pro is that the addict’s willingness to do the polygraph is maybe more important than the polygraph itself. Polygraphs can feel scary but just being willing is huge. Saying to a partner- if this is what you need for your safety, because of course you wouldn’t trust my words because I told you all these things over the years and that turned out to not be the truth. For addicts to say- for you to trust the words I have written down are the truth, it makes sense that you would want something to verify those things.
For him to be willing to do a polygraph, even if he is scared, when partners know that, it provides extra levels of safety for partners.
Becky shares that in creating safety for partners, the willingness to do whatever it takes is HUGE for betrayed spouses. Logically it makes sense, if someone has been dishonest with you or is holding back parts of information from you, it would be hard to believe that all of the truth is coming out.
Dan also shares about the cons of doing a polygraph test. He says that it is important to talk about that because most addicts will research things. Polygraphs are not 100%. There are false negatives and false positives. Someone may be lying and pass a polygraph, someone may be telling the truth and may fail a polygraph. Another concern, Dan says, is that some people say they are inadmissible in court. The laws are different state by state, so it is not true in every state.
Also, the rate of accuracy, at worst it could be as low as 89% but it is much higher than that generally. So, it is possible but not likely that it would be inconclusive.
But again, Dan reminds us, if you are not willing to do a polygraph, you are not willing to do whatever it takes and now your partner has to be the human polygraph. Addicts are forcing this burden onto their partner rather than being willing to engage in something that will actually keep her safe.
Dan shares that even with disclosure and polygraphs, it really is about honesty, maybe not necessarily truth. He hopes they line up but sometimes it may have been so long ago the addict may not remember every detail. A polygraph is actually testing if you are lying, intentionally omitting things or if what they are disclosing is, to the best of his knowledge, what happened many years ago.
This is the difference between honesty and truth and for disclosure it is important to know that difference between- THIS is the best of your knowledge vs intentionally not sharing the truth.
Dan shares that this process is about HONESTY. He says that sometimes addicts remember more later, coming out of the fog. Sometimes they have truly forgotten and a polygraph can help partners know that addicts truly have forgotten, rather than withholding information.
Tiffany asks if Dan would recommend periodic polygraphs? Dan says that truth isn’t going to be rebuilt through words.
Words and actions lining up. That is how trust is rebuilt.
Dan says that periodic polygraphs can help rebuild trust and continue to rebuild that level of safety for partners. It is not uncommon to do a 3 month follow up, a 6 month follow up, a 1 year follow up polygraph. He adds that some addicts choose to do polygraphs as part of their own work as an accountability tool. He says that sometimes partners may see the work and growth and change of the addict and then sometimes they don’t need a polygraph. The partner can see that they feel the addict is in integrity.
Dan shares that after so many years of the partner not being able to trust, for the addicts to be willing to be honest and take a polygraph goes a long way.
Consistently showing you are trustworthy is one of the BEST ways to build trust.
Dan also shares that disclosures can be before or after or both. Whatever the partner feels safest is perfectly ok. Becky says that this process is about partner sensitivity and providing safety. She says that culturally women have been taught they aren’t allowed to ask for a lot and omen need to speak up to be able to find their healing. The power shift in this situation needs to happen, in order for healing to happen.
Dan shares that some addicts may feel disempowered or controlled after disclosure or by boundaries. But they are really, really important. The whole point of boundaries is for safety. Many partners feel like if he is willing to do these things, they can provide safety for me, they will help me feel safe. And he says the extra bonus is that if you say you are going to do things and you follow through and do them, you are actually building trust again.
Dan says that boundaries are vital. And they are literally a roadmap for the addict to build safety. Do these things and I will feel safe. You don’t even have to make it up.
For boundaries post disclosure, Dan shares that it is important to think in short term boundaries- next few days, weeks, or a month. Many partners express they don’t want to be touched unless invited, because “This is my body”. And these boundaries are like safety cones- they may be temporary during this construction phase. Partners may need more boundaries now but they can be changed in the future.
Dan shares that he has been amazed by the support partners get from other women. Driving friends to disclosure, sitting in the waiting room during disclosure, just being there for the partner. It is one of the most beautiful things I have seen. Becky reminds us that partners need support. Please ask for support, reach out for support, and give support when you can.
Dan shared his song “I Need Thee Every Hour” by Jars of Clay because he feels like it is so centering and grounding. It reminds him of a very centering and grounding time in his life.
We want to thank you, Dan, for your support of full therapeutic disclosure with support rather than trickle disclosures. They create so much safety for both the partner and the addict.
Dan’s Resources:
Dan’s website- www.banyantherapy.com
Books: “Full Disclosure: How to Share the Truth After Sexual Betrayal” by Dan Drake and Janice Caudill (for addict)
“Full Disclosure: Seeking Truth After Sexual Betrayal” by Janice Caudill and Dan Drake (for partner)
Honesty
Boundaries
Empowerment
Self-care- Preparing mind, body, soul and spirit
FIdelity Polygraphs
Dan’s Song:
I Need Thee Every Hour by Jars of Clay
